José Bourget
Episode 206

Narrator:

Welcome friends to another episode of The Story & Experience Podcast. Join your host Japhet De Oliveira with his guest today and discover the moments that shape us, our families, and communities.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Hey, welcome friends to another episode of Story & Experience Podcast. I'm delighted to be in Michigan at Andrews University on the campus in the office of this particular person. So the guests that we're going to meet today, if you're brand new to the podcast, we have a hundred questions. They're smiling. This is a good sign.

We have a hundred questions and they progressively become more vulnerable close to 100. They're about stories and experiences that shape this individual into the leader that they are today. So I'm going to ask the first 10, and then I'm going to hand over to you and you pick numbers between 11 and 100. Okay, sounds good.

José Bourget:

I think we could do that.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right. All right.

José Bourget:

Let's get close. Let's get close.

Japhet De Oliveira:

And what do we have here in these cups?

José Bourget:

Oh, this morning I made some fresh chai. Yeah, some great black tea, some cardamom, some clover, some black pepper, a bit of ginger. I wanted comfort, so I went with the evaporated milk and oat milk. The evaporated milk makes it a lot more creamy.

Japhet De Oliveira:

It is very good. So we have chai tea as well. So this is a double blessing today. Well, let me begin with the first one. Can you tell us your name and does anybody ever mispronounce it?

José Bourget:

Yeah, so it depends who you ask. So my first name is José, but most people pronounce it José.

Japhet De Oliveira:

No way.

José Bourget:

Yes. Yes way.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yes, that's true.

José Bourget:

And my last name is Bourget. And so in high school the chants began, "José Bourget. José Bourget. José Bourget. Your name rhymes." And I said, "No, it doesn't, but for your accent it does. I get it. I understand. So yeah, José Bourget.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's great, José. I feel bad saying José now.

José Bourget:

No, no, don't feel bad. Don't feel bad. It's good.

Japhet De Oliveira:

José, what do you do for work?

José Bourget:

So I work on the campus of Andrews University. Been here for the last 13 years. I presently serve as assistant vice president for faith engagement, also dual title of university chaplain. The funnest part of my job, there's a few aspects to it, the funnest part of my job is getting to work at the Center for Faith Engagement with three other chaplains and a missions director. It's the hub of activity for students engaging their faith.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's fantastic, man.

José Bourget:

Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

So 13 years on this campus.

José Bourget:

13 years. Insanity. I know.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's great, man. That's great.

José Bourget:

It's a good number, but we've been having a good time.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Hey, that's fantastic. Now, have you been a chaplain your entire life?

José Bourget:

So prior to serving as a chaplain, I worked in a local church context in Chicago, heavy into community engagement, heavy into helping young professionals get engaged, not only with church, but engaged with volunteerism and community engagement. It's fun to be able to serve in your community, and then to do that with young professionals was great.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I hope in this podcast that people get to hear a little bit more because he's been very shy about what he's done. It's good. It's good. Sure, I did these three things.

José Bourget:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I happen to know that he's..

José Bourget:

I'll share more. We're getting to the more vulnerable questions. This is really great.

Japhet De Oliveira:

This is good. This is good. All right. Are you a morning person or a late night owl, José?

José Bourget:

Man, in my best moments, I'm a morning person. If I start my day exactly how I want to start it. I'm up at 5:00, I'm doing some exercise, I'm doing my devotionals, and then quiet time with a hot beverage, and then the rest of the house wakes up. I love to start the day early.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah, that's good, man. That's good. So this morning when you woke up, first thought that went through your mind today.

José Bourget:

First thought, man, it was rough. It was kind of a sad morning, to be honest. We'll get really vulnerable. My wife got a dog, I don't know, nine years ago. And for the last two years, this dog has had a really bad ear infection and we have expended as much money and energy as we can to try to resolve it, but the bacteria in that infection is resistant to antibiotics, but it's also transmittable to humans.

And so the pain management is okay for the dog, but probably within the next little while it's going to get progressively worse. But the risk to the little humans we have at home, we have a little baby and a toddler, is not worth waiting for it to get too much worse.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Oh, no.

José Bourget:

So my wife had to get up this morning and we packed up the car and she's driving it up north to her family and they're going to put it to rest. Put it to rest. So my first thought this morning was, what can I do to make this easy for my wife? Because I love the dog, but this is her baby. And so it was a rough morning. Not to start on a sad note on the podcast, but that's the reality of life.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That is the reality. That's where we are.

José Bourget:

Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I am sorry for that. That's a heavy thing to carry for anyone, for anyone.

José Bourget:

So my chai ritual after she left was very therapeutic, just to be able to focus in on the ingredients, the smells, and the joy of doing something for people I love. That's right here in front of me right now.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I hear you, man. I hear you. So José, man, if people were to describe you as an extrovert or an introvert, which one would they normally pick and would you agree with them?

José Bourget:

Yeah, so I think they would definitely say extrovert. I don't know that I know a stranger. I feel very comfortable with people. But interestingly enough, do we call you Jay or Japhet?

Japhet De Oliveira:

José and I have known each other for nearly 20 years, and so we go by Jay.

José Bourget:

We'll try to keep it kosher.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I go by Jay with him, but you can call me... Yeah.

José Bourget:

Yeah, Japhet. All right, so Japhet. The older I'm getting, the more introverted I've become. In fact, I think, it's not hard to be an extrovert. I mean, it's very easy for me, but I am finding myself in a stage of life where the inner circle is power. And not just retreating by myself, but really having a inner circle is probably the thing that had been missing most of my life is building intimacy with a smaller group of people. And so yeah, I'm still very much an extrovert, but I have found some of the joy of being a bit more introverted as well.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's good. That's good. Where were you born?

José Bourget:

Oh, great question. I was born in Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic. It's the second Eden pretty much.

Japhet De Oliveira:

The second Eden.

José Bourget:

Yeah, it's the second Eden.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Nobody else has claimed that.

José Bourget:

No one else has claimed that. I didn't want to be heretical and say it was the first Eden. Archeology disagrees with me. But second Eden, most beautiful island in the Caribbean. The most amazing beaches ever. And the food and the juice, it's just... The fruit juice is everything there. Amazing.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Now, did you grow up there long? Were you there long?

José Bourget:

Man, I was there until not very long. I was there until I was five, and then we immigrated to the US. My father was already a US citizen. Very legal process. And he came to study to get his PhD. We moved here to Berrien Springs. Actually the first month we were kind of migrant workers. The first year, I should say. We arrived and I remember the first three months we lived in Arkansas.

The next three months we lived in DC. Our bed was air mattresses. And we're not talking about today's air mattress. We're talking about the air mattresses that people use when they go to the pool. So I was five. Anyway, it was an adventure. And then we lived in somewhere, Apopka, Florida, Northern Florida somewhere, in a trailer for three months. So my dad needed to make some money first.

But as a kid, this was all adventure. What did I know? None of this... I mean, looking back I understand, oh, we were dirt poor as I look back. Yeah, we didn't have much. And then we moved here to Andrews University where he was pursuing his degree.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah, amazing. I mean, you think about it today if you were going to do something like that.

José Bourget:

Yeah, my children would probably kill me. Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting how everything has changed. Comfort levels have changed. Being called to the wild, if you would, it does not seem interesting at all.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Now, when you were a young man, a young boy actually, what did you imagine you would grow up to be?

José Bourget:

I don't even know. I think the first idea that I had about what I would do when I was growing up was probably in fourth or fifth grade. And it was a really powerful moment because there was a juxtaposition of another thing that happened in my life at that moment. So in fourth grade, I was the teacher's pet. Ms. Rose Graham was the teacher. Absolutely amazing.

She died, I don't know, 10 years ago, but I was very much the favorite. And who doesn't love being the favorite, Japhet? Come on. I was the favorite. Man, that lady loved on me really well. We did this thing where she would teach us songs with Bible verses, and I remember learning to sing the 10 Commandments. I remember learning to sing Romans 12:1 and 2.

And I'm not going to sing for you now, but yeah. I remember believing with all of my heart that Jesus was going to come very, very, very, very soon. I remember going up to my parents and saying, "I think Jesus is coming this March." Coincidentally, my birthday is also in March. But like childlike belief, I was convinced this was going to happen. At the same time, that was the year that I learned that my parents were getting divorced.

So I had this juxtaposition of this really deep hope of the future and then also this deep grief of my parents not continuing their journey together. And I got asked to speak at our Church for Youth Sabbath and preach. And I think that was the first time that I thought, you know, I really enjoy giving people hope through Jesus and the hope... Rhe irony of what I preached on was actually on unity.

And as a young boy, I did not understand probably that that was a reaction to my parents getting divorced. So on my heart is let's come together as things at home are coming apart. So that was probably the first time that I thought I really want to be a pastor. So that's where I was.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's fantastic.

José Bourget:

Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right, let's go to here's a leadership question and I'm going to hand over to you. So are you a backseat driver?

José Bourget:

Wow. I definitely have the feelings of a backseat driver. I definitely have strong urges to backseat driving. And on some occasions, I may do some backseat driving. Yes. But it is certainly something that I'm learning to mitigate in my life and in my role as a leader is to not backseat drive.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yes.

José Bourget:

Yes. So I think that's the most accurate definition of how I backseat drive. There's a certain amount of angst that I have to navigate and yes, restrain. I don't want to say I am a backseat driver. You've convinced me, Japhet.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That was quick.

José Bourget:

I am a backseat driver who's learning to put a muzzle on it.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Hey, that's good. That's good. Maybe indicate left or right in the future. Hey, the floor's open, José. Where'd you want to go between 11 and... Oh, you just pick a number.

José Bourget:

Oh, I pick a number.

Japhet De Oliveira:

He leaned over to see the questions. I was like, my friend, my friend.

José Bourget:

That's not what I... Oh wow.

Japhet De Oliveira:

You don't know what the question is.

José Bourget:

That's not at all affirming that I'm a backseat driver is I try to reach over the table to take a look at the questions so I can manage traffic.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah. That is the first time it's ever happened.

José Bourget:

You're kidding?

Japhet De Oliveira:

I kid you not. This is amazing.

José Bourget:

I know you're completely honest and never joke like this.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I do joke.

José Bourget:

Yes, you do joke, but I'm excited to know. Let's go easy. 14.

Japhet De Oliveira:

14. All right, brilliant. Tell us about what you enjoy doing outside of work.

José Bourget:

Oh, man. I love traveling, driving in particular. The hum of the road, the solidarity, turning the radio on, it's an ideal space for me to just daydream. So particularly as a creative, creating spaces where I can be alone with my thoughts, but also being a restless soul, driving at least makes me feel like I'm being productive. My wife says that driving also helps us to help the economy, but I do love to drive.

I love playing strategy games. I have one rule when I play any strategy game or any game, it's only cheating if you get caught, Japhet. I try to win in whatever way it's possible to win. By the way, not an ethic that I carry outside of the game space, yes, but I love playing strategy games.

Japhet De Oliveira:

You like calling people's bluff.

José Bourget:

I love calling people's bluffs. And probably one of the wonderful things about my wife is that she's very competitive. She's a physician and she's also the boss in her environment. And when we play games, it's one of the best spaces to bring out her best stuff. And so another game that I play is is how close to the line can I get before it brings problems for the rest of the evening? No, I joke. We have a good time with it.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's fantastic. Good. All right. That was 14. Where next?

José Bourget:

21.

Japhet De Oliveira:

21. Ooh, share the best compliment you've ever received.

José Bourget:

Wow. I have to think about that one. This year I onboarded two new team members to my team. So there's a team of 1, 2, 3, 6 of us, and we onboarded two new team members. So we were doing some team building exercises, and one of the things that I strive for in my team environment is really to create this not only as a productive space, but a supportive space for one another.

We work on a great campus, but anybody who works in any institutions knows that as you're your calling, as you're navigating your mission, your objectives, you're going to run into resistance everywhere. So how do we create an environment in our office where you find support and encouragement. And also, iron sharpens iron. To do that well, to help strengthen each other, you do need to create a sense of safety and permission.

And so as part of getting to know each other and how we work with one another, I had my current team members share things about themselves and my newer team members share things about themselves and then I added what I've experienced with each one of them.

And one of my new team members, after I finished adding descriptions and behaviors and things about each of my team members, the new team member says, "Wow! I love that everyone in this room so well. You know their strength. You know how to support them. You know how to draw them out. I'm really excited to be a part of a team where the boss knows that about his team."

And I really valued her saying that because it is something that I try to do for the people in my life is to get to know them and then try to understand how can I add strength to what they're doing. So for her to capture that and then to communicate her appreciation for being able to be in a room and on a team where we're investing in that level, it was really encouraging for me. I think it was probably the best compliment I got this year.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's beautiful, man. Yesterday we were crossing the path here on campus and a car pulled up and the person asked if either of us spoke Spanish. And you just immediately swung into Spanish, help them out. And I could hear, because I don't speak Spanish, but I understand a little bit of it, and I was like, oh, you have always been a person who's very engaged in people. You love to be able to help people, hear them. So yeah, I like that compliment about you.

José Bourget:

Yeah, thank you. I do.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's good. All right, where next, sir?

José Bourget:

What?

Japhet De Oliveira:

Where next?

José Bourget:

Oh, 28.

Japhet De Oliveira:

28. That's good. This is great for you. If you had to give an impromptu 30 minute presentation, what topic would it be?

José Bourget:

Man, it would be about how we activate our empathy to do good in the world. It's a frame that I work from is how do I meet someone where they are? And then using that engagement, that understanding, that information, that interaction, and seeing how we can move forward with it to do good in the world. I think the internal drive of every human that's most rewarding and most satisfying is mutually beneficial.

One where your best parts end up adding good to the other parts of the world. When those two things intersect, I think it's powerful. So I would want to talk about empathy and using it in your leadership, using it in your influence, using it to inform what problems to solve. Yeah, I think that's what it would be 30 minutes on that.

Japhet De Oliveira:

A question 28A. I know you haven't chosen that one, but it's just come up. Okay?

José Bourget:

Good, good, good, good, good, good.

Japhet De Oliveira:

What would be the number one, in your experience, having taught this a lot, what would be the opposition to growing empathy?

José Bourget:

I think the opposition to it, especially in institutional environments, there's a lot of focus on productivity. So the scale of value is what comes most in opposition to this, right? So if we're in environments where there's a heavy level of competitiveness and the metrics of what's productive are not humanized, empathy becomes very difficult. So in those environments where productivity is huge, and I mean that's most of Industrialized America, we have not humanized our work or humanized how we work.

So I think calling on empathy rubs against the cogs that drive industry. So on a very superficial level, everyone agrees empathy is good. We should be pursuing how to increase human value. But then when you seek to operationalize that and change processes and shift expectations to humanize the work and humanize the workers, you can run into some really big challenges.

But what I've seen, Japhet, is that when people do that, especially when bosses and supervisors begin to humanize that, A, their teams are actually healthier and actually consequently end up becoming more productive.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yes. There is a return straight away.

José Bourget:

So there's a return. But even for the boss, right? Because bosses have a lot of pressure to perform, to produce, to execute, to drive out the best from their employees. Even for the boss, they find greater satisfaction in the work that they're doing because they receive the joy of treating people with the utmost dignity. And that's a gift that they are positioned to give. So yeah, it's difficult to find the way, but when you do and the reward, you check several boxes.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Now, 28B just popped up on the menu as well. I'm just like, I don't know how this came up, but I know you have been coaching executives for quite a while, and is this a journey to teach empathy in this way into the workplace, is this something that takes one session? Is it something that takes a year? How long does it take for somebody to grapple with it and implement it?

José Bourget:

I mean, when you meet people at different aspects of their... An early manager, probably several more sessions because what's also evolving is their management style. An executive that has been in the sea for quite a while, we're probably talking three, four months, 10 sessions, just to be able...

Because the first few sessions is really introspective. To be empathetic, you need to have a level of emotional awareness, social awareness, and you have to sensitize aspects of your being that you have probably let go a bit dormant. Yeah, I know it sounds super scary, but I make it super easy. I make it super easy.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's good. That's good. All right, where'd you want to go next after 28 ABC?

José Bourget:

35.

Japhet De Oliveira:

35. Ooh, share a special interest, unique talents that you have.

José Bourget:

Oh wow.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah.

José Bourget:

I think a unique talent that I have is being able to hear what someone is saying that they may themselves not know what they're saying. It's kind of wild. I'll sit with people and they will share things and then I will share back. And they think that I've come up with something entirely brand new, some epiphany, just catered to them. And really it isn't that. It really is just being able to hear them, to listen to them, to sit in this space with them.

And I'm just repeating back to them what they have shared with me. I just happened to use fewer words that capture that feeling, that sentiment, that sense. Yeah. So I would say that's a special gift that I have, which can be used for good or for good in bad ways.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Like in strategic game?

José Bourget:

In the strategic game, yeah. Which buttons can I press right now? But yeah, I would say that's a... Am I answering that question well? Yeah. I think that's a unique gift that I bring is being able to capture what someone is really saying and then share it back in a way that they actually can address it, deal with it, assimilate it into their process of whatever's unfolding.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Brilliant. All right. Where next?

José Bourget:

42.

Japhet De Oliveira:

42. Oh, looking at your phone, what's the photo on your phone, the background photo, and tell us the story behind it.

José Bourget:

Oh, this is a great question. This is a picture of the Gulf of Mexico, the beach. We went with a couple of friends a couple years ago to an all-inclusive resort in Mexico, Cancun. It was my wife and I, couple of friends, their grandparents. Their parents, I should say. It was a great time. We spent a week down there, ate amazing food, pool side, beach side. I want to go back there now actually. It was good to get away.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Who wouldn't? Who wouldn't?

José Bourget:

Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Exactly. All right, good. All right, where next?

José Bourget:

49.

Japhet De Oliveira:

49. Oh, what are you currently learning about and why?

José Bourget:

Oh, that's a good question. One of the things that I've done my entire life has to do not only with engaging with people on a one-to-one basis, but also engaging with communities. So about a year or two ago, I started working on my social work degree. And this semester in particular, we're looking at... The class that I'm in is relating to being able to do diagnostic work.

And there's this book called DSM-5, which is used by medical professionals to help diagnose people. And I'm learning that to a certain degree, things are very subjective to the observer and you can come up with any number of diagnoses depending on the information that you have. So yeah, that's one thing that I'm learning because... Here's how this is helpful.

My philosophy of supporting communities, of supporting individuals, of supporting corporate environments is adapting a strength-based frame. How can I see what's the strength in the moment and help to draw that out to work through whatever it is that we need to work through.

So when you're looking at diagnostics, leaning into the diagnosis that is probably the most nimble, most agile, to then be able to help that person create a narrative of strength to be able to overcome. So that's kind of what I'm learning. I'm also learning that that is a aligned with best social work practices, which is great.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's fantastic, man.

José Bourget:

Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Good, good. All right, where next now? That was 49.

José Bourget:

50... What's 49 plus seven? It's 56, is it? Yeah, 56.

Japhet De Oliveira:

There's math.

José Bourget:

There is a math. There is a pattern.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right, this is great.

José Bourget:

14, 21, 28, 35, 49, 42, 49, 56.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right.

José Bourget:

The next one's going to be 63.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Well, we'll see.

José Bourget:

Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Share an activity that makes you lose track of time other than adding sevens.

José Bourget:

Oh man, sitting having coffee with friends. Coffee or chai. When I think about retirement, my idea of the perfect day is getting up at 5:00 or 6:00, being able to use the bathroom properly like I was a 40-year-old, and then going to a coffee shop and sitting with friends for hours.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah,

José Bourget:

Yeah, connecting.

Connecting. Just connecting. Sharing space.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Caring.

José Bourget:

Yeah, just sharing space. That would just be a load of joy. Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Would it involve a chess table?

José Bourget:

Yes, it would involve... It's really hard to cheat in chess, so I don't know that I would enjoy that.

Japhet De Oliveira:

You and your games.

José Bourget:

Yeah, me and my games, but I would enjoy watching other people play chess. Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

No worries. Hey, we have time for two more.

José Bourget:

Oh wow.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah, that's why.

José Bourget:

I'll skip to 70 then.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right, 70 it is. Tell us about one thing that you are determined to accomplish.

José Bourget:

I think one thing I'm determined to accomplish is to be the same person everywhere that I am. And what I mean by that is the calling that I feel, the sense of purpose that drives me is being a encourager, being a truth teller, being wise, being supportive to the people around me.

And probably in the second half of my life right now, also creating space for people to be that for me because I don't think that I did that for the longest time. So being able to be that person, whether I'm at work, whether I'm at home, whether I'm socializing with my friends, being able to be that person 100% of the time in everything that I do.

Japhet De Oliveira:

You and I have talked about this before and I think it'd be great for our listeners to hear your perspective on this. And again, bonus question.

José Bourget:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

How do you discover your purpose?

José Bourget:

I think there's a few ingredients to this practice. One is making sure you take time for reflection. I mean, that's critical. You have to pause. You have to look back, examine your feelings, examine your thoughts, review your thinking, your values. That act of reflecting on those aspects of your being I think are very critical. The second thing I would say is surrounding yourself with the people that practice reflection and are also seeking to live out their purpose.

And creating space and vulnerability with those people for them to speak into your life and to have conversation about it. The people around us are going to see things that we don't see and they may see the same thing indifferently. So as part of the activity of reflection, inviting others into that space to be able to do it. And then I think the third thing, which is really important, is you actually have to actualize the purpose you're aware of in whatever that you're doing, you need to be doing.

That's the circle. As you're doing, taking the time to reflect on what you're doing and seeing how that aligns. Do these pieces fit together. Does this resonate with me? Is this closer to the person that I feel that I am? I also think we need to get away from this idea that our purpose is static. One of my favorite names of Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us. One of the greatest testaments of God and Scripture and continued history is God's ability to meet us exactly where we are.

And so to be on purpose, it's never arriving. It's always in process and being in process. So there's an element of transformation and ongoing creativity of discovering your purpose and realizing your purpose.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's beautiful. Thank you so much. Brilliant. All right, final one, final number. Where'd you want to go?

José Bourget:

Oh man.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah.

José Bourget:

90.

Japhet De Oliveira:

90. All right, here it is. Tell us about how you overcame a seemingly insurmountable obstacle.

José Bourget:

Lots of therapy.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Well, that's true for anybody, right? Yeah, yeah.

José Bourget:

So probably the greatest pain that I had in my life was going through a divorce and not wanting to quit on marriage, not wanting to concede that this thing was done and over and accepting and grieving. The loss of that was the hardest thing I think in my life to overcome. Every pain since then has paled in comparison to how disorienting that experience was. Having said that, my ex is a great human. My ex, we probably had one of the least messy divorces or separations.

We have amazing co-parenting. But what that moment did for me is I had to confront things that I had failed to address and reflect on in my life. I had good friends prior to that. I realized that I didn't actually create room for intimacy with my friends and being awakened to that reality and being pushed into a situation where having connection was necessary for survival.

It took that much to get me to build those connections and have those friendships that could sustain you, that could support you. That was definitely the hardest. It was the biggest existential crisis that I confronted, and I did it through therapy. I did it with actually developing intimate friendships. I did it by discerning how to prioritize what's most important in life.

But I think probably one of the biggest things that I had to learn navigating that was to accept new realities. I think one of the reasons we can be persistently depressed, consistently filled with anxiety, consistently placed in a moment of fear is because we're not willing to accept certain realities. I will say that understanding is largely overrated. There's a lot of things in this world I will never be able to understand, that I will never be able to comprehend.

The math is not math-ing, as they say, and I would be better off to simply accept what the reality is. That's not the same thing as conceding. It's not the same thing as quitting. It is just having clarity about what's in my capacity to control, drive, and influence, and accepting that there are actually have limited capacity.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yes. Yes. True. Every area. Yeah.

José Bourget:

Yeah. So I would say those things, good therapy, good family, good network, good connections, and learning to accept.

Japhet De Oliveira:

José, it's been a privilege to be able to speak to you and share. Thank you so much. You're a strong reminder that with a good chai, good tea, good coffee, we can have real conversations and we can grow through them. And I say this in every episode because I believe it that. When you sit with a friend and you talk, you hear, you actually are transformed as well by it. So thank you again so much, brother. It's been privilege and God bless everybody and God bless you too.

José Bourget:

Hey, thank you.

Narrator:

Thank you for joining us for The Story & Experience Podcast. We invite you to read, watch, and submit your story and experience at AdventistHealth.org/story. The Story & Experience Podcast was bought to you by Adventist Health through the Office of Culture.